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Ep 14 – Post Episode Discussion

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12:50 pm
January 27, 2010


Rvandsing (St Louis area)

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 275

First off, thanks to all of you for providing your insights and thoughts–makes viewing this episode additional times more enjoyable. 

Second, while hinted at, I don't think any of you have come right out and said the last scene where Castle calls his date "boring" and Beckett talks about hers as "self involved" was really a use of "IRONY"–since those terms described Castle (whose date probably thought he was boring) and Beckett (whose date probably thought she was self involved/absorbed).  And then again, their conversation "IN THE ELEVATOR"–a favorite meeting place, referring to the "first date" which most of you caught as them "ironically" discussing their "first date with others" when, in fact, they were going on THEIR FIRST DATE. 

In other words, I think the writers were having a field day with the use of IRONY in this episode, which we all know is one of Castle's favorite concepts. 

I think, all around, this was my very favorite episode to date.  The writers are really finding their mark in this series now.  It's like all of them are in sync with the characters and are able to demonstrate that with cohesive, intelligent scripts that showcase their actors.  The writing in this series is simply fabulous. 

Rvandsing — North side of 60 and proud of it — Cubs Fan forever

1:04 pm
January 27, 2010


Beckett2.0

Castle Groupie

posts 28

In response to Mis:
The one and only kind of weird thing for me was that there was absolutely no transition whatsoever from the previous episode, which was so serious and so important to the overall development of these characters. This is an episodic show, so, right, you just assume that time has passed and things are a bit more jovial. It was really kind of a jolt to me, however. I thought it was great that this episode was so much lighter, but I felt like there needed to be some even subtle allusion to the stuff that went down in last week's ep. The fact that there wasn't ever so slightly devalued it for me somehow. When I queried this in chat no one agreed with me, but I still wanted to voice it here.

I completely agree on all accounts. Going into the episode I had hoped that something would be said about what took place in "Sucker Punch", but (as we know) that didn't happen. It was, I admit, the one problem I have with the episode. If only for the fact that what happened in "Sucker Punch" was so incredibly intense and important and a life altering moment for Kate. True to form, the show is an episodic/procedural, but it would have been nice to have a mention of some sort. Though, I suppose, one could say that the writers subtly alluded to the fact that Castle and Beckett now seem to have a bit of a closer relationship than before. But then, I suppose, one could argue that that is really looking into it and alas I find myself arguing in a circle.

No matter, I still adored this episode. Some of the strongest writing for the show to date.

2:07 pm
January 27, 2010


PamFromCalif

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 213

I don't know if this has been mentioned in the thread here yet but did you notice when Beckett & Castle are talking to Miss Langford and she is telling them that the squatter fixed her sink, both Beckett and Castle say WHAT at the same time. I love how they usually have them say something or think something at the same time to show us how on the same page their minds are. To bad they can't read each others minds but give them time they are working on it.

In the opening segment of the show at the house where the man is found dead in the bed, Beckett says what to Castle and Castle says what what to Beckett, it fits in with the scene with Miss Langford and them both saying WHAT at the same time so cute the writer again giving us the repeat.

I just love how Castle automatically brings her coffee now in each episode next he will be making her supper( oh one can hope)

Next up I am waiting for them to either hold hands or kiss that's my next step to this relationship maybe it won't be in #15-16 but I can hope for #17-&18 Seamus is teasing us over on FB that he has just read #17 and you won't believe what happens. Oh how they love to torment us Jon, Nathan and Jose!

4:47 pm
January 27, 2010


unniw

Norway

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 1728

to those looking for transition from Sucker Punch –
I'm thinking that Sucker Punch ended in such a way that it wasn't necessary to bring it up again now. The end scene in 213, with them eating and talking – to me that meant that the tension from the episode was resolved. They were friendly, relaxing, and ready for the next case. Just my view.

I wish I knew how to quit you.

6:12 pm
January 27, 2010


unniw

Norway

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 1728

rvandsing said: First off, thanks to all of you for providing your insights and thoughts–makes viewing this episode additional times more enjoyable.

Totally! Joining this forum has elevated the enjoyment of this series tenfold.

rvandsing said: Second, while hinted at, I don't think any of you have come right out and said the last scene where Castle calls his date "boring" and Beckett talks about hers as "self involved" was really a use of "IRONY"–since those terms described Castle (whose date probably thought he was boring) and Beckett (whose date probably thought she was self involved/absorbed). And then again, their conversation "IN THE ELEVATOR"–a favorite meeting place, referring to the "first date" which most of you caught as them "ironically" discussing their "first date with others" when, in fact, they were going on THEIR FIRST DATE.

Great take on this. Think you nailed it.

I wish I knew how to quit you.

6:36 pm
January 27, 2010


gemma

Castle Groupie

posts 27

Great points and insights from all, I enjoyed this episode immensely as well.

Just wanted to say, wouldn't it be so great and funny if in the next episode they have some kind of inside joke from their time at Remy's

something funny that happens with the food or the waiter and they are joking about it in front of Esposito and Ryan, and Eposito and Ryan are like what is so funny, and they say Oh just had to be there, an inside joke between the two of them, and they have a funny word or thing that reminds them of it and they laugh occasionally about it. That would be so much like a date or a couple.

Well never know. The writing is so superb, it is the show I  have been craving and waiting for all these years. I just hope they keep it up and in the end give us all what we are waiting for. I crave show with the element of two main characters around a good story line that are really meant to be together. Shipper all the way. Yah, no x-files, jag. but what always pissed me off on those shows, is why they would show the characters with other loves, with a good sex scene or kissing but in the end would just give a kiss and nothing else. What the heck, We better get our dues in the end. I am so into the ride along the way, that is what makes the show so enjoyable to watch the interaction, the chemistry. I truly haven't seen a show with writers that are able to pull off a show where the characters get togheter early in the show and then continue the good ratings and such. I would love to see the whole secret sexual relationship type show played out, but always afraid if they go there it will end the show prematurely, know what I mean.

7:28 pm
January 27, 2010


gemma

Castle Groupie

posts 27

also don't know if anyone else mentioned this.

I loved the part too when castle and beckett are arguing about the article and it saying her and he are romanticlly linked, and then he says about the newspaper and calls the newspaper and beckett jumps in to it and then trys to listen with her ear up to his phone, and  my take on this after watching several times, is that her close proximity has made him flustered and forget his name and then he is just standing there staring at her, while she takes over the call, did anyone else get this at this time, I mean yeah he probably would have to be the nypd or a cop to get the info that he needed, but he could have just made that up.

7:37 pm
January 27, 2010


Tsurwolf

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 102

Fantastic episode.
Only watched it once so far, but all the way through i felt comfortable with the cast's interaction, like another day in the life of my favorite family.
It's funny that when i watch it for the first time i am not looking for anything that stands out, i just let the show wash over me and enjoy the show for what it is, a crime/mystery drama, that's not to say that i don't notice the little things that make the show feel real.
Yes i am another fan !! who wants Rick and Kate to get together at some time in the future, and am enjoying the slow dance that is occurring at the moment (it's deliciously frustrating)but it appears to be moving forwards.

Best one liner "do they realize they are finishing each others sentences" paraphrased

Best scene "the elevator" or "Alexis talking to number 9 dad" Bounce

To the people in the background (who write the scripts and give us so much to dissect) a huge pat on the back and a big cuppa joe or beer if that's your preferance.

Cheers TBBW

My safe word is "MORE"
Nobody understands me

7:43 pm
January 27, 2010


lmr32385

Naperville, IL

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 271

After watching the episode for the third time, I had to point this out here (I don't think anyone has said anything about it). When Castle and Beckett are done talking to Esposito and Ryan on speakerphone and start to go back to their dates but instead leave them, it makes me wonder if Brad got stuck with both bills or did Amanda pay for hers and Castle's. I thought about that after watching Monday night, but as I keep watching the episode, I keep thinking about it. It makes me wonder what happened. (I hope that all made sense!)

And his tie does look like it changed from a maroon to a purple color as someone else pointed out. Interesting.

Well, it seems to me that the best relationships–the ones that last–are frequently the ones that are rooted in friendship. You know, one day you look at the person and you see something more than you did the night before. Like a switch has been flicked somewhere. And the person who was just a friend is…suddenly the only person you can ever imagine yourself with. ~Dana Scully 

 

Whoever hired you, he can't hide from me. ~Beckett

No sweetheart. You got it ass-backwards. You can't hide from him. ~Lockwood

 

Don't be stupid. You can't hide her from us. From me. ~Lockwood

You got that ass-backwards, boy. You can't hide from me. ~Montgomery

Icon made by reema_patel

7:52 pm
January 27, 2010


wolf-fire

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 62

Something interesting I noticed while re-watching the episode (sorry if this was already mentioned). At the restaurant, Castle says that he truly didn't know that Kate was going to be there because he didn't think she could get a table. You can tell it's the truth by the expression on his face. What's funny is that Castle made reservations at that restaurant the day before (right before he has his conversation with Alexis at home) and didn't say anything when Beckett asked about said restaurant the next day. Considering all the gloating he was doing about "#3" being interested in him, you'd think he would have brought it up.

Castle stealing/hiding all of the newspapers was great. Seriously, I think he hid at least four of them from Beckett. A quick question though. When they were at the station and Beckett leaned toward a computer screen to look at something, she leaned right over the paper. Castle, in an attempt to hide it, covered it with his hands and touched someone elses had in the process. Was that Beckett's hand or Esposito's? Because I'm thinking if it was Beckett's hand, she would have at least glanced at Castle with a "What are you doing?" face. Also, the look he gave the woman when she asked if Beckett was "the girlfriend detective" was great. It was a mixture of "Oh please don't" and "I hate you so much".

Love Castle's little escape when Ryan and Esposito are asking him why he cares about Beckett's date.
Castle: Hey, what's that-
Ryan and Esposito: *look down at the table*
Castle: *slips out*

Most of the other things I wanted to comment on have already been pointed out, so I'll leave it here. :)

8:33 pm
January 27, 2010


CastleMuse

Castle Groupie

posts 26

Pardon if I repeat things as I haven't gotten a chance to read through the thread…

The writers of Castle are SO good, that I think the continuity and transitions from ep to ep are somewhat more subtle and pervasive. They don't seem to like to make things "on the nose" for their viewers, so I believe want us to dig for clues like Castle/Beckett on their cases.

If we look at their relationship since Rose Ever After, I think a bigger picture emerges. Up until that point, they both had been revisiting failed relationships b/c they couldn't be sure exactly how they fit into each others lives. Telltale sign is how they felt the need to justify their actions w/old flames…..The end result of Rose was Castle let go of his lost love, imo, to essentially ask "The One" who didn't get away, Beckett, if she would accept him in her life, and the universe (or TPTB ;) ) answered his proposal by having her catch the bouquet. Then in Sucker Punch, more than just a metaphor for "I do", or Castle gaging Beckett's emotional temperature by whether she accepts his coffee, she literally says "I want/need you in my life" (more or less). And further still, she wants him there to share arguably the most intimate thing about her-solving her mother's case. I think that was like they crossed the emotional threshhold of their relationship.

Which brings us to The Third Man…After Castle's enduring stint as NY's most eligible bachelor, and Beckett's pitifully single lifestyle, neither of them can have a successful date with "good catches" because subconsciously they're spoken for! They clearly went on those dates to make each other jealous, but I think to also prove to themselves they weren't already an old married couple. Ryan jokes they're finishing each other's sentences, and we see more than ever they share two sides of the same bed, er brain. Not to mention they basically complain their dates are not each other respectively, and Castle even holds her purse (such a husband thing to do ROFL). Last but not least, Beckett takes Castle's arm, twirling her hair like she did when she felt flirty talking to the fireman and off they go to have their first "date".

As far as the more serious aspects of Sucker carrying over, the ep ended on a lighter note. If not in terms of closure than at least some sense of hope that they will catch Beckett's mom's "killers", and she will not be alone when they do. So, I guess I didn't feel any need to have allusions to the events of that ep in Third Man.

8:47 pm
January 27, 2010


PamFromCalif

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 213

To Castlemuse – excellent post I love your thoughts on this .

One thing I didn't get is Ryan ) Expo didn't bat an eyebrow that Castle was with Beckett at the restaurant. I guess they are so used to them always being together they forgot they were on dates with other people and most likely thought at other places to eat!
I am glad someone posted here what Castle said in his high pitched voice to Beckett when she found out they were linked romantically I must have rewound that thing 10 times and couldn't figure out that he said, I'm on your team!

8:59 pm
January 27, 2010


CastleMuse

Castle Groupie

posts 26

Thank you Pam:)

Hmm..you're right! Ryan and Espo didn't seem surprised Castle/Beckett were together, but they probably figured they'd never be able to stay away from each other for too long lol. The dates were doomed before they started.

11:52 pm
January 27, 2010


wynnara

Vancouver, Canada

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 116

So here's one thing which is either a glaring ommision or the smart move of a best friend… did Lanie know about the article? It seems to me that that would be some serious ammo for her to use in her Castle/Beckett needling, which she had been enjoying up to this point. 

Honestly I half expected her to be writing Castle's name down when she handed Beckett that slip of paper.

 

12:03 am
January 28, 2010


PamFromCalif

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 213

To
wynnara
That would have been to cute to see Beckett's face if Lanie had written Richard Castle. Funny!

1:06 am
January 28, 2010


Tsurwolf

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 102

Wynnara quote:Honestly I half expected her to be writing Castle's name down when she handed Beckett that slip of paper.

That makes two of us Crazy

I was so surprised when she didn't. Doh

Cheers TBBW

My safe word is "MORE"
Nobody understands me

9:18 am
January 28, 2010


Moby Dick

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 387

That would have been cute to see her do that to Beckett but Castle needed to see that other men find Beckett desireable and are very willing to pursue her.She needed to show him she is attractive to other men which she did very well. It's really his move to make,which he finally did at the end.You noticed while at the restaurant Castle watched every move Beckett made.I believe he would have followed he into the ladies room if he had too.Everytime Beckett got up,Castle all but toppled his chair getting up.

Lanie may have realized that Beckett had to make a showing of being attractive to other men.I think Lanie was aware of Castle making the list and saw it for what it was when Beckett came to her.

"The heart wants what the Heart wants"

9:19 am
January 28, 2010


Van

Guest

That would have been funny if Lanie had written a prescription for a dose of Castle.  This seems to be the biggest quirk with the show…the under-use of Lanie.  I was expecting her to harass Castle about the article at the 1st crime scene. A "you know my girl is going to get you when she reads that article' type reference.  WritingIn "Sucker Punch" I wanted to see a tender girlfriend moment.  At the very least, for Lanie to refer to Kate as "Kate" and not "Beckett".  I know the writers are limited in what they can do in each hour episode but when Lanie is present she needs to be more a part of things.  More relevant.  I hope this gets better as the show progresses.

As for the transition from last week to this week, I agree with those that wrote that closure was achieved at the end of the episode (Sucker Punch).  With this episode being so light and fun it may have been damaging to re-introduce what happened last week.  The murder of her mother is still there.  We know it's there.  It's always there.  The writers have made it clear that Kate compartmentalizes (sp?) her feelings especially where her mother's murder is concerned.  The show is all about how the characters are transitioning to a healthier state of being with each other's help.  I do hope that the writers touch on what happened in 'Sucker Punch' in future episodes but I don't think this was the episode to bring it up.   

11:10 am
January 28, 2010


Van

Guest

Moby Dick said:

That would have been cute but Castle needed the opportunity to pursue Beckett. It's really his move to make,which he finally did at the end.You noticed while at the restaurant Castle watched every move Beckett made.I believe he would have followed he into the ladies room if he had too.Everytime Beckett got up,Castle all but toppled his chair getting up.
Lanie is a smart woman and knows which way the wind is blowing.I believe she fixed Beckett up with the hoser to make Castle see the woman that is Kate Beckett.
It seems like everyone on the show knows that C&B have the hots for each other but for what ever reason will have to be pushed kicking and screaming into each others arms.It's fun to watch the progression and I think it's being delivered masterfully.

Here is how I see them getting together………………
While on a case,Beckett and Castle are trapped in an impossible situation and both believe they may not make it out hole.Declarations are made back and forth,yada,yada,yada and they wind up in each others arms in a passionate embrace just before the team rushes in to save the day. Or…….maybe not.How do the rest of you see it happening? No rush and no pressure but I would love to hear some thoughts.

Here's how I think Beckett will crash the walls of the Castle…………

Some crazed fan kidnaps Alexis.  This is absolutely debilitating to Castle and for the first time he can imagine Beckett's pain. The pain of losing her mother. Of course, Kate tries to comfort him throughout this process.  This allows for close proximity and a whole lot of touching.  While the FBI scrambles to figure things out.  Kate does her own investigation and being the superwoman, supercop that she is…she returns Alexis to Castle safely.  Castle and Martha offer their thanks and gratefulness to Beckett.  Castle, Martha, and Alexis share a hug. Beckett watches relieved and partially wanting in on the hug. Emotionally drained she goes home.  Beckett fresh from a bath stands at her kitchen counter drinking tea and unbearably aware of her aloneness. There's a knock.  She opens the door and there stands Castle.  Beckett suddenly aware that she is wearing her unflattering sweats and her hair hasn't dried.  She invites him in as she can see the intensity on his face.  Something's different.  He's a man on a mission. 

Kate: "What is…."

Castle (interrupts):  "Please.  Please let me say this.  I don't know when it happened but something… you have done something…

Kate:  (Feeling the intensity and not sure if she can handle it interrupts).  "Castle, cut it out.  You've already thanked me. You need to go home and get some rest."

Castle:  (Serious) "Please don't do that.  I think you know what I'm here to say.  If not, you're not as good of a detective as I thought.  I don't when it happened but you have taken a part of me.  I go to that station everyday not because of any murder case.  I can careless about a murder case.  While I'm writing these Nikki Heat novels I have to remind myself that I'm not writing a romance novel.  I need to be near you.  If I don't look in those big green eyes and smell that cherry scented shampoo, I'm shattered.  I sit by the phone and wait for you to call me…I wait for you.  (Beckett turns to walk into her kitchen because she's feeling overwhelmed and knows she will cry if he says another word. He stops her and forces her to face him).  I love you.  I won't deny this anymore.  Today has convinced me that we don't always get a second chance so you have to hear this. (Kate's tears can no longer be contained.)  I love you.  You're smart, and tough, and I'm sure the most beautiful woman alive. (Pause) I know you think I'm not the man for you.  The very idea of me frightens you.  You're not just a character in a book for me.  You're the woman who I want to as my lead character….in my life.  I don't know what is supposed to happen now but I could not spend another day without you knowing how I feel.  I love you and I'm pretty sure that I'm going to love you for a very long time.  (He reaches in to wipe her tear).

Kate:  (She closes her eyes as he hand brushes the tear from her cheek.  Determined not to let the moment pass.  She opens her eyes.  She holds his hand at her cheek).  "I believe you're supposed to kiss me now."  (Castle stunned and relieved pulls her closer.  Gives her a soft kiss on the lips.  Stops to look at her.  Finally a long passionate kiss.)

You guys know what happens next.  THAT"S RIGHT……………..FLOOR ACTION!!!!!!!!!!CoolCoolCool


12:13 pm
January 28, 2010


Moby Dick

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 387

Van,
WOW ! Rock on !!!! Thanks for the participation.

"The heart wants what the Heart wants"

3:34 pm
January 28, 2010


Van

Guest

Moby, you asked. I answered.  It was fun.Laugh

4:00 pm
January 28, 2010


wynnara

Vancouver, Canada

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 116

Moby Dick said:

That would have been cute to see her do that to Beckett but Castle needed to see that other men find Beckett desireable and are very willing to pursue her.She needed to show him she is attractive to other men which she did very well. It's really his move to make,which he finally did at the end.You noticed while at the restaurant Castle watched every move Beckett made.I believe he would have followed he into the ladies room if he had too.Everytime Beckett got up,Castle all but toppled his chair getting up.

Lanie may have realized that Beckett had to make a showing of being attractive to other men.I think Lanie was aware of Castle making the list and saw it for what it was when Beckett came to her.


Yea, I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Beckett was desirable to Castle a LONG time before this. He's asked her to join him after work before, and she's turned him down. I don't think the ask has ever been quite so straightforward as that extended arm, but still… I think she's calling the shots on the "when" here more than he is.

I don't know… maybe it's the feminist in me, but I really would like to believe that a guy can like a girl without it being a "well, other guys like her!" sort of deal… that just feels way to neanderthal to me. Of course there's going to be jealousy on both sides of the equation, but I don't think it's about her being attractive to other men or him being attractive to other women for that matter… it's the realization that one might lose out on their chance because of inaction that I think spurs people into motion in these situations.

 

4:28 pm
January 28, 2010


unniw

Norway

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 1728

Just looked at the end again (and again), this time trying to figure out what Castle is feeling. Beckett twirls the hair, but Castle – when Beckett says "Oh why not", Castle has a "Mmmm" and looks very content when he walks on with Beckett at his arm. Reminds me of – oh, my, I can't believe I forgot Shock – they've walked arm in arm before! When they arrive at the party in 107, all dressed up. Castle was proud, and Beckett a bit overwhelmed then. I'm thinking Castle in 214 again is proud to walk off with Beckett at his arm, looks like he's savoring the moment.

I wish I knew how to quit you.

6:25 pm
January 28, 2010


maryc

Hollywood CA

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 308

unniw said:

Just looked at the end again (and again), this time trying to figure out what Castle is feeling.


 I love how Castle never took his eyes off Kate at the very end there–He just gazes at her, reaches for the dress bag, takes it and offers his arm to her and never once took his eyes off her.

~maryc

6:46 pm
January 28, 2010


Sandy (aka newsjunkie)

Hard Core Castle Groupie

posts 290

Yea, I'm sorry but I don't buy that. Beckett was desirable to Castle a LONG time before this. He's asked her to join him after work before, and she's turned him down. I don't think the ask has ever been quite so straightforward as that extended arm, but still… I think she's calling the shots on the "when" here more than he is.

I don't know… maybe it's the feminist in me, but I really would like to believe that a guy can like a girl without it being a "well, other guys like her!" sort of deal… that just feels way to neanderthal to me. Of course there's going to be jealousy on both sides of the equation, but I don't think it's about her being attractive to other men or him being attractive to other women for that matter… it's the realization that one might lose out on their chance because of inaction that I think spurs people into motion in these situations.

wynnara, I am not a feminist by any stretch of the imagination but I agree with what you've said here. Castle has not hidden the fact that he's interested in Beckett at all. Sure his approach has changed, but he's had his eye on her since the moment she stepped into the first book party.

"Shut the front door!" "No time for dirty talk, go get changed."

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