Quite intriguing. Even though this may be part of the Rick Castle onion it would be a shame to break up the spree of excellent posts.
To me it seems that Ricks mayor issue would be avoiding mistakes from the past. Given the fact that he jokes about his marriages it's quite likely that he still regrets what happened to them and sees both as personal failures. His playboy phase was after the 2nd failed marriage and that was just him trying to escape from relationships in general. But after a while he realized that wasn't what he was looking for in life. So he wants to be in a meaningful relationship but not like his previous marriages. That may explain the way he's walking on eggshells.
For instance the way he talks about Alexis to Kate and asks her for advice is one of the things that went wrong with Gina or bringing in coffee every morning.
But there also seems to be another perspective on his motivation which is more unclear. Why did he say he wasn't after Kate when Demming asked him. But after when it seemed they were hitting it of he wanted to walk away from it. But with Josh he didn't walk away even though at that time he didn't have any hints from Kate IIRC. The only thing different was because he broke up with Gina again. Then they spent the rest of the season becoming better friends simply because that was the only thing he could do at the time even though he was in love with the woman. So when he thought she was dying he forgot about everything and told her ILY. He must have a very high threshold for admitting such a thing. That may be because he is afraid of losing Kate. Then again that doesn't explain why he doesn't say it a second time if she didn't hear it because he meant it.
I think another part may be because of he's either passive towards getting into relationships with a woman by himself or learned that from his mom. The only thing he did was ask her out for dinner in episode one. After that he didn't do anything direct like that again. He just shows up every day and is there for her. Like she has to make the move.

I agree to a large extent with what ACF has said here.  I've never seen her as cold, but then i grew up with lots of people who were very much like Beckett – independents, good at keeping their own counsel and dealing with their problems themselves. I never doubted their affection, i just didn't expect it to be trotted out to order very often even with close family members, let alone anyone of a less intimate connection. I'd also add that there's a lot of self-protection in his reticence to say certain things to her directly, since the very beginning.  She eventually answers his impertinent questions; he doesn't.  At least now he has a a good reason to justify his silence.  I also agree that putting more weight on the non-verbal signs of support are a better way to reach her. 

Non-rhetorical question:  If she manages to pull herself together enough to 'move on' from her mother's murder and her own shooting and puts these traumas behind her – exactly what is it going to do to her and that hard fought progress when she finds out that Castle's been investigating on his own?  The last time he did that her carefully boxed up way of dealing with her mother's murder was blown to smithereens, and his investigation directly or indirectly lead to the death of Montgomery and her shooting.  Will she be able to deal because this round of therapy will have effected a more fundamental cure or will his actions push her well and truly over the edge?  

GhostWriter said:

I agree to a large extent with what ACF has said here.  I've never seen her as cold, but then i grew up with lots of people who were very much like Beckett – independents, good at keeping their own counsel and dealing with their problems themselves. I never doubted their affection, i just didn't expect it to be trotted out to order very often even with close family members, let alone anyone of a less intimate connection. I'd also add that there's a lot of self-protection in his reticence to say certain things to her directly, since the very beginning.  She eventually answers his impertinent questions; he doesn't.  At least now he has a a good reason to justify his silence.  I also agree that putting more weight on the non-verbal signs of support are a better way to reach her. 

Non-rhetorical question:  If she manages to pull herself together enough to 'move on' from her mother's murder and her own shooting and puts these traumas behind her – exactly what is it going to do to her and that hard fought progress when she finds out that Castle's been investigating on his own?  The last time he did that her carefully boxed up way of dealing with her mother's murder was blown to smithereens, and his investigation directly or indirectly lead to the death of Montgomery and her shooting.  Will she be able to deal because this round of therapy will have effected a more fundamental cure or will his actions push her well and truly over the edge?  

Doesn't that moment, that moment when she finds out his secret, seem to be her waterloo? What Kate seems to want now is to be able to put her mother's case on the shelf, to live a life she has wanted to live but couldn't because of the weight of the burden she carries, but it seems to me that that is fairly easier when she doesn't have the temptation in front of her. When Castle's secret does come out, the temptation will be placed directly in front of her, and I think that's when she will know whether her progress means anything. It will be her real test because now she has open leads to follow, a path laid before her, and I think it will be interesting to see whether she decides to pursue the case or not. What I find more interesting is that I don't think she needs to put the case behind her completely, I think she simply needs to find that middle ground between complete obsession and complete apathy, a point where she can investigate the case and find closure without giving up her life and without falling down that rabbit hole.

And I think that feeds into the debate about relationships. Being in a relationship does mean compromise but I also think it means acceptance. Sure, we can compromise over some things, sure Kate and Rick can both be more open, but part of that middle ground is understanding that the person you have fallen love with isn't someone who must change. Be careful what you wish for because if you want someone to change, when they do you might not like the person who comes out the other side. But more to the point, the things that define Beckett and Caste aren't things that should ever change, their lives should be independent from one another, and even when they do finally get together, I think what makes a good relationship is when the other person affirms the good person that stands beside them instead of trying to change then intrinsically.

Inherently, I don't think there is anything wrong with change especially when you are the one that wants to change, but one of the reasons that Kate needs to go on this journey by herself is because if she changes for Castle, then she will lose herself along the way. If Kate wants to become a better person, she needs to do it for herself and not because of Castle because that is the only real change that can actually mean anything. A journey of self-discovery can't be defined by someone else or it's not a journey of self-discovery. We can't make ourselves into something someone else wants, we need to make ourselves into someone of whom we can be proud, and if a relationship can then develop, then and only then is when we can give ourselves to others, fully.

ACF said:

GhostWriter said:

little eve said:

ACF said:

What I wonder about is how she will reconcile her need for independence and control with the possibility of Castle's need for her to be more a part of his life.  We are told by the Castle storytellers that they are meant for each other, but a fiercely independent person and a person who has a similar fierce need to be helpful and be needed do not necessarily match.  Castle has tamped that need down a few times already – Are we asking him to sacrifice part of who *he* is so that he is compatible with who Beckett is?  Or will they find that happy medium?  Will Beckett's need for control be tempered by the recent events in her life and her realization that she needs to let Rick in which means a certain amount of release of control?  Once they enter a relationship that they define as long-term, one-and-done, I don't believe either of them will be content with walking the same road, side by side but separate.  I think their lives will intertwine.  Some may see this as a loss of self, but I see it more as a completion of self, allowing a potential to be reached that was not possible while navigating this world alone.

Beautifully said!! I agree with you in that a functioning relationship is about finding that happy medium for both. For Castle and Beckett, as for any other couple of the planet, it will require work and give and take. Yes, Beckett will hopefully learn to let go of her control a bit to allow Castle 'in'. Castle on the other hand will have to allow her to work things out for herself at times and reign in his "hero complex". In a way I think they are already doing this and we saw evidence of that in the last episode with Castle giving Beckett space and stepping aside for a bit, waiting for her to be ready to come back to him. Beckett on the other hand lets no one in as much as she lets Castle in. We have seen over the last 9 episodes how much this has increased since she heard the ILY. Love, now there is the key motivator for all those changes that we see in our DD. I believe they have as much a chance as any other couple to weather this and the chance to "intertwine" and set out on their journey together. I do not see this as a loss of self either, sometimes you have to give a little to gain a lot. But then again, I would after 16 years of being in a relationship … talking to the choir .

I understand what you both are saying and agree that meeting in the middle is the way that many people go.  But i also think that it is not the way every committed couple organizes their relationship and far less common when the couple becomes a couple when they aren't kids.  They are very different and fully formed people, which is why they are so interesting and their relationship is and can be such.  I cannot see either of them really changing who they are, nor should they have to, in order to be together – it'll just be a more fiery relationship than a traditional one. And yes, it will probably take more work than most to keep them together because they are do different.  

To borrow an expression from my horse loving friends – the best horses are the smart ones, the ones with fire and independence.  They are difficult to domesticate and if you try to 'break them' to the saddle, you've broken what made them great. These are the horses you partner with, not own.   

I don't think anyone is asking them to change who they are and that is my point.  So far, I've seen a lot of posts about Castle having to change his playboy image or grow up or some such stuff or say this even though he may have reasons or do this or that.  I think I am more looking for more give and take in the relationship.  One person consistently standing their ground and saying meet me here or it's off generally leads to it being off at some point.  Meeting someone at some point in between (not always halfway, but compromising) is how relationships of all kinds stay together.  Fiery is a good way to describe it – but I'd hate to see one person primarily the fuel and one the consuming fire. 

As far as their lives intertwining they already have.  Like it or not – fiercely independent Beckett already has Castle as a part of her.  If she didn't, then she could have (and would have) kicked him out long ago.  Once they are one-and-done, will she decide to be part of that part of his life?  He is with her at work, he gets what her job entails.  But has she really put that kind of effort into his life?  Not yet, likely because he hasn't pushed it.  Will she support his career?  I would hope so to some extent because that is what he has done for her and it has lead to a greater understanding between them.  I would hope that what is important to him carries some weight with her and I think it will.  I don't see Kate Beckett as someone who would be threatened by a bimbo offering her chest to be signed.  To think that she would be afraid of that part of his life diminishes her somehow in my mind.   

Besides, we're not talking about a long-distance relationship here, where two people call themselves committed without having to deal with day-today boring stuff like open toothpaste tubes or who picked up the dry cleaning.  They live in the same city, I think once they say "committed" it will follow at some point that they will be living together, maybe even at some point married.  It's not out of character for either.  Beckett talks about marriage as something she could see herself doing and she talks about her parents relationship as a good memory.  And despite the glad hand way that Castle refers to marriage with certain audiences, I think the fact that he has tried it twice in the past points to a mind-set that values the institution with he right person, something he has not been able to find yet. 

Living in the same household means sharing, you can't get around it.  And sharing a home and then going to work together means sharing a whole lot.  Does that mean he can't have Alexis time or Madden time with he boys?  Does that mean that she can't have Lanie time or time with her dad or other friends?  Does it diminish either of them to be committed to one person and their happiness as opposed to just their own personal happiness?  I don't think so – the majority of their lives will be shared experiences.  I don't see that as breaking anyone, I see that as finding what you want and nurturing it however you can.  

I think i need to go back a couple of pages and re-read a whole series of posts.  I have the feeling we are talking at cross-purposes here and it may just be a function of using the same words to mean different things.  

Being independent (to me) does not preclude being able to share.  It should certainly be able to accommodate Castle having oodles of time to spend playing Madden with the boys or spend time with his daughter (the reverse may be more problematic, he's naturally more clingy than she is).  Independence also isn't a synonym for selfish.  It does, however, mean that leaning on someone else is damnably difficult to do.  And i have no idea what happens when someone used to standing on her own two (high heeled) feet gets intimately involved with someone who congenitally wants to take care of that person and wants to be leaned on.  Since she already relies on him for a lot, i can't see that being a huge problem in many areas, though her job & his need to protect her may be the sticking point.

grapes said:

Quite intriguing. Even though this may be part of the Rick Castle onion it would be a shame to break up the spree of excellent posts.
To me it seems that Ricks mayor issue would be avoiding mistakes from the past. Given the fact that he jokes about his marriages it's quite likely that he still regrets what happened to them and sees both as personal failures. His playboy phase was after the 2nd failed marriage and that was just him trying to escape from relationships in general. But after a while he realized that wasn't what he was looking for in life. So he wants to be in a meaningful relationship but not like his previous marriages. That may explain the way he's walking on eggshells.
For instance the way he talks about Alexis to Kate and asks her for advice is one of the things that went wrong with Gina or bringing in coffee every morning.
But there also seems to be another perspective on his motivation which is more unclear. Why did he say he wasn't after Kate when Demming asked him. But after when it seemed they were hitting it of he wanted to walk away from it. But with Josh he didn't walk away even though at that time he didn't have any hints from Kate IIRC. The only thing different was because he broke up with Gina again. Then they spent the rest of the season becoming better friends simply because that was the only thing he could do at the time even though he was in love with the woman. So when he thought she was dying he forgot about everything and told her ILY. He must have a very high threshold for admitting such a thing. That may be because he is afraid of losing Kate. Then again that doesn't explain why he doesn't say it a second time if she didn't hear it because he meant it.
I think another part may be because of he's either passive towards getting into relationships with a woman by himself or learned that from his mom. The only thing he did was ask her out for dinner in episode one. After that he didn't do anything direct like that again. He just shows up every day and is there for her. Like she has to make the move.

Yes, he recognized that he has to win her attention with small gestures and not with asking her out day after day. He would`ve known that he would always get a "No" as an answer as long as she wasn`t interested in him more and he really had her attention.

GhostWriter said:

… 

Non-rhetorical question:  If she manages to pull herself together enough to 'move on' from her mother's murder and her own shooting and puts these traumas behind her – exactly what is it going to do to her and that hard fought progress when she finds out that Castle's been investigating on his own?  The last time he did that her carefully boxed up way of dealing with her mother's murder was blown to smithereens, and his investigation directly or indirectly lead to the death of Montgomery and her shooting.  Will she be able to deal because this round of therapy will have effected a more fundamental cure or will his actions push her well and truly over the edge?  

To take a guess on your non-rhetorical question:

I think she will deal with it with much less of her former helplessness and despair. She evolved and, therefore, her attitude for the importance of this event will be more "relaxed" (in a kind) or calmer than it used to be. Of course, she will be affected in a way. But not to the extend of wanting to cut Castle out again or saying "we`re over" to him. I think of AM saying "that both of them have secrets and what will they provoke when they finally come out?" is just to be seen as kind of "shaking the trees" of the audience. Of course, it will not be ignored but I think the "great drama" will be left out of the story. She will get it and coming to understand his intention of protecting her after thinking over it when his secret slips out. She`s not the same character or person as she was end of season 1. She`ll know that he`s done that for her. That "always" means in every aspect of her life. And that`s not only words but a promise.

Am I the only one here who thinks that Josh broke it off with Kate because he couldn't compete with Rick for Kate's heart?

Alie said:

He-Touches-Things said:

Am I the only one here who thinks that Josh broke it off with Kate because he couldn't compete with Rick for Kate's heart?

Pretty much in a nutshell. I think it might have been a mutual realization.  Josh might have just felt the distance between them and Beckett might have felt bad stringing him along when her heart is not it.  Plus, I doubt they had much time together, him being Super Surgeon and her cooped up in the woods.

'Cept I think it was unilateral on his part, rather than 'mutual'. Kate sounded disappointed in the way she said "We broke up" – like she wasn't given a choice in the matter.